Top home-school texts dismiss Darwin, evolution

Get their minds right...for their own good.
grayman
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Top home-school texts dismiss Darwin, evolution

Post by grayman »

Top home-school texts dismiss Darwin, evolution. Story here.

Some quotes if your interested:
Two of the best-selling biology textbooks stack the deck against evolution, said some science educators who reviewed sections of the books at the request of The Associated Press.

"I feel fairly strongly about this. These books are promulgating lies to kids," said Jerry Coyne, an ecology and evolution professor at the University of Chicago.
"Those who do not believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God will find many points in this book puzzling," says the introduction to "Biology: Third Edition" from Bob Jones University Press. "This book was not written for them."

The textbook delivers a religious ultimatum to young readers and parents, warning in its "History of Life" chapter that a "Christian worldview ... is the only correct view of reality; anyone who rejects it will not only fail to reach heaven but also fail to see the world as it truly is."
"If this is the way kids are home-schooled then they're being shortchanged, both rationally and in terms of biology," Coyne said. He argued that the books may steer students away from careers in biology or the study of the history of the earth.

Wile countered that Coyne "feels compelled to lie in order to prop up a failing hypothesis (evolution). We definitely do not lie to the students. We tell them the facts that people like Dr. Coyne would prefer to cover up."
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Post by sparks »

Another case of shit masquerading as science.
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Post by Nyarlathotep »

corplinx wrote:The evidence for evolution grows weekly. The evidence for any sort of intelligent design has been stuck at zero for millions of years.

At this point we have a neo-flat-earth movement.
Except the flat earthers aren't so politically powerful that the politicians fight each other for the chance to suck the flat earthers cocks on a daily basis.
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Post by grayman »

corplinx wrote:The evidence for evolution grows weekly. The evidence for any sort of intelligent design has been stuck at zero for millions of years.
The line that stood out for me:
Wile countered that Coyne "feels compelled to lie in order to prop up a failing hypothesis (evolution). We definitely do not lie to the students. We tell them the facts that people like Dr. Coyne would prefer to cover up."
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Post by djw »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:OTOH, if the home schoolers are actually teaching their kids to read, unlike many public schools ...

Just remember Michael Shermer started out as a fundy.

But if a kid can't read, it doesn't matter if evolution is "taught" or not.
I think you're right here. At some point, they'll be exposed to the science. As long as they're reading, they'll be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
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Post by Nyarlathotep »

djw wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:OTOH, if the home schoolers are actually teaching their kids to read, unlike many public schools ...

Just remember Michael Shermer started out as a fundy.

But if a kid can't read, it doesn't matter if evolution is "taught" or not.
I think you're right here. At some point, they'll be exposed to the science. As long as they're reading, they'll be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
Not necessarily. The people writing/promulgating/teaching this stuff can read too. It's a pretty safe bet that the idiots who think this is fine material with which to teach their kids science can read as well.

Education is no insurance against falling for bullshit.
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Post by hammegk »

Nyarlathotep wrote:
djw wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:OTOH, if the home schoolers are actually teaching their kids to read, unlike many public schools ...

Just remember Michael Shermer started out as a fundy.

But if a kid can't read, it doesn't matter if evolution is "taught" or not.
I think you're right here. At some point, they'll be exposed to the science. As long as they're reading, they'll be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
Not necessarily. The people writing/promulgating/teaching this stuff can read too. It's a pretty safe bet that the idiots who think this is fine material with which to teach their kids science can read as well.

Education is no insurance against falling for bullshit.
Too many public schools apparently offer education that doesn't include the ability to read, write, or do arithmetic. You think Darwinism, social justice, and multiculturalism is better?
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Post by Nyarlathotep »

hammegk wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:
djw wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:OTOH, if the home schoolers are actually teaching their kids to read, unlike many public schools ...

Just remember Michael Shermer started out as a fundy.

But if a kid can't read, it doesn't matter if evolution is "taught" or not.
I think you're right here. At some point, they'll be exposed to the science. As long as they're reading, they'll be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.
Not necessarily. The people writing/promulgating/teaching this stuff can read too. It's a pretty safe bet that the idiots who think this is fine material with which to teach their kids science can read as well.

Education is no insurance against falling for bullshit.
Too many public schools apparently offer education that doesn't include the ability to read, write, or do arithmetic. You think Darwinism, social justice, and multiculturalism is better?
Funny, my kids are in apublic school and they leearned to read/write, do artihmetic and what political indoctrination they had was more from the biases of individual teachers (which is inevitable until they perfect the Teach-bot 2000) than the cirriculum and as far as I could tell came from both sides. So yeah, I find the results preferable than having my kids taught myth as fact.

Besides, my point is that education is no insurance against anything other than being uneducated. It won't make you less susceptible to woo or anything else.
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Post by hammegk »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
hammegk wrote: You think Darwinism, social justice, and multiculturalism is better?
Nice work of guilt by association. And false alternative.

You forgot to mention condoms.

The private school the president's kids go to teach all those things and reading too.
I don't doubt it. You better get something for $thousands a semester.

The future leaders (and trust fund numbnuts) will be educated. And good atheists, too.
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Post by DrMatt »

hammegk wrote:You think Darwinism, social justice, and multiculturalism is better?
Since reading and writing are prerequisites for the latter three, the answer is yes. Wanna make something of it? :P
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:The original concept was not an entitlement for parents, it was that an educated populace was good for society.
And not so incidentally, good for business, democracy, and national defense.
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Post by En folkefiende »

corplinx wrote:The evidence for evolution grows weekly. The evidence for any sort of intelligent design has been stuck at zero for millions of years.

At this point we have a neo-flat-earth movement.
Yeah, we have EXACTLY THE SAME KIND OF RELIGIOUS REACTIONARY MOVEMENT THAT DID IN THE MOORS.

Look what it did to the moors and such.

Oh, and the other thing that did them in was the stress and hate from the crusades. Which is what they want to do to us. Which is what we give in to, 150%, when we do stupid stuff like invade Iraq.
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
DrMatt wrote:And not so incidentally, good for business, democracy, and national defense.
That's parts of society, no? :P
Fabulous parts, deary!
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Post by Llacheu »

I know a family that home schooled their kids (all boys). They can read and were not subjected to Christian fundamentalism because they are "fundamentalist Wiccians." They are better read than most people, but I'd say they were nearly "ilnumerate," and while they accept that evolution occurred, they can not describe any of the mechanisms of evolution. Their physics textbook was "The Tao of Physics." The oldest one has tried college a couple of times, but has quit in frustration over his math skills and having to unlearn what he learned before.

Shermer may have been able to overcome his early education but not everyone can.
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Post by DrMatt »

Llacheu wrote:I know a family that home schooled their kids (all boys). They can read and were not subjected to Christian fundamentalism because they are "fundamentalist Wiccians." They are better read than most people, but I'd say they were nearly "ilnumerate," and while they accept that evolution occurred, they can not describe any of the mechanisms of evolution. Their physics textbook was "The Tao of Physics." The oldest one has tried college a couple of times, but has quit in frustration over his math skills and having to unlearn what he learned before.

Shermer may have been able to overcome his early education but not everyone can.
Best early teacher I had was a guy named Frazen who thoroughly mixed critical thinking studies into 8th-grade algebra. He would also spout summaries of famous philosophical stances at times, and make us argue for and against them on their merits.
He belonged to the era and looked like it.
He never cleaned his coffee cup.
And he often repeated that the problem wasn't knowing what to think but how to think.
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Post by hammegk »

Those darn big-oil companies.

http://townhall.com/columnists/HarryRJa ... g_to_waste

Obama appears to hate his own race.
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Post by DrMatt »

My race is the 600 m. It's a sprint but don't get caught in a heat surrounded by bums who think it's a jog. It's a long sprint. Painful.
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Post by En folkefiende »

hammegk wrote:Those darn big-oil companies.

http://townhall.com/columnists/HarryRJa ... g_to_waste

Obama appears to hate his own race.
Oh, look, hamme introduces race as a topic. News at 11. Oh, 'g'.
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Post by hammegk »

Did you read the link?

I haven't ruined the DC school system. It took Brown v Board and 50 years of neglect to do that.
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Post by Mentat »

I don't see what unions have to do with anything, and I sometimes wonder if private schools give anything more than the appearance of being better half the time.
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Post by En folkefiende »

I've said this many times.

Any normally capable high school student should be able to write a paper describing, accurately, what the Theory of Evolution is, cite evidence for it, and explain how the evidence is overwhelming. This should be a requirement to graduate high school.

Note, I didn't say they had to BELIEVE it, only accurately and precisely cite the evidence and the theory.
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Post by hammegk »

corplinx wrote:Neglect? Its not neglect. The schools have been heavily interfered with by the union, local government, and federal government for 50 years.

The problem is, money doesn't follow the child, so schools have no incentive for improvement beyond maintaining minimums for federal funds. They are a government run monopoly that shows all the same deficits you would expect from such a position.

With the same results whenever you seem to have heavy government interference and heavy handed unions, the poor get screwed and the rich don't (since the rich send their kids to private schools).
Absolutely right, but that's what I deem the neglect. Kids no longer receive an education, which, unfortunately remains a local condition problem.

Schools everywhere have dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, and even the bright kids get screwed.

Mentat wrote:I don't see what unions have to do with anything, and I sometimes wonder if private schools give anything more than the appearance of being better half the time.
They have two things going for them. Self-selected students, and parents who do give a damn.

jj wrote:I've said this many times.

Any normally capable high school student should be able to write a paper describing, accurately, what the Theory of Evolution is, cite evidence for it, and explain how the evidence is overwhelming. This should be a requirement to graduate high school.

Note, I didn't say they had to BELIEVE it, only accurately and precisely cite the evidence and the theory.
And that remains a crock of crap that has nothing to do with receiving a useful, utile, high school education.

Peddle your atheism to those who want it.
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Post by En folkefiende »

hammegk wrote:
jj wrote:I've said this many times.

Any normally capable high school student should be able to write a paper describing, accurately, what the Theory of Evolution is, cite evidence for it, and explain how the evidence is overwhelming. This should be a requirement to graduate high school.

Note, I didn't say they had to BELIEVE it, only accurately and precisely cite the evidence and the theory.
And that remains a crock of crap that has nothing to do with receiving a useful, utile, high school education.

Peddle your atheism to those who want it.
Of course, you lie when you accuse me of peddling atheism. You lie when when you say understanding the scientific method is not somethign that is part of a useful and necessary high school education.

Why do you want the USA to have poorly educated students? Do you hate the USA?
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Post by gnome »

Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
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Post by hammegk »

gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
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Post by En folkefiende »

hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
Bull****.
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Post by hammegk »

jj wrote:
hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
Bull****.
Wipe your chin. The spittle is unbecoming.
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Post by En folkefiende »

hammegk wrote:
jj wrote:
hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
Bull****.
Wipe your chin. The spittle is unbecoming.
Don't project your senility on me, please.
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Post by gnome »

hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
What the heck does that mean?
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Post by Mentat »

gnome wrote:
hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
What the heck does that mean?
Translation: "If it isn't, then it is."
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Post by gnome »

I challenge Hammegk to refute that his statement is objectively false. There are MANY theists who accept evolution. Jews and Catholics do, for the most part. So how is that in any way a correct statement?
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Post by hammegk »

gnome wrote:
hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
What the heck does that mean?
That you don't understand English?
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Post by gnome »

hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:
hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
What the heck does that mean?
That you don't understand English?
Or that you fail at speaking it with clarity.
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:In the context of western Christian thought, evolution with God in it is a rear-guard action by institutional religionists.
Yeah, we heard it all before, about Catholics being No True Christians, and only evolution-denying Christians being True Theists. Nice try, Humpty-Dumpties.
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:FAIL DrMatt.

Christianity when it compromises with modernity merely equates to "niceness". You don't need Jesus for that.

Likewise, anti-slavery Christians were using their own ideas about slavery being contrary to "Christian" love rather than following what is clearly written in the New Testament.

etc.
Another No True Scottsman FAIL, AA.
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Post by specious_reasons »

Abdul Alhazred wrote: Christianity when it compromises with modernity merely equates to "niceness". You don't need Jesus for that.
I disagree - it compromises with modernity to ensure its survival. Ironically, the Catholic church is probably struggling because it picked the wrong subjects to adapt to - evolution rather than reproduction.

(Reproduction in terms of pastors being allowed to marry, and a limited amount of family planning - in the context of marriage.)
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
DrMatt wrote:Another No True Scottsman FAIL, AA.
So sorry DrMatt.

Christianity with evolution in it is as intellectually dishonest as creationist apologetics.

Whereas belief in divine creation before Darwin required no dishonesty.


Irrelevant. Doublethink has never slowed theism.
This evolution thing, if it really catches on, will be the death of Christianity. I hope I hope I hope.
Hasn't happened yet. No evidence for it happening. Apathy towards the establishment has been the main force for the waning of Christianity, but a wider variety of theisms has emerged. Meanwhile, the evolution-begets-atheism formula hasn't been working out. Theism readily evolves around such minor changes in the intellectual environment.
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Doublethink has never slowed theism.
Doublethink was not necessary on this issue before Darwin. The necessity for doublethink certainly deters many people.
The all-powerful all-merciful bit has been noted at least since Epicurus. Doublethink and theism have gone hand in hand long before Darwin. This issue is a pawn in a much larger world.
Apathy towards the establishment has been the main force for the waning of Christianity
This much is true, but it hasn't happened in a vacuum.

It happened in the context of there not being any particular logical reason to believe any more, other reasons perhaps remaining untouched.
See "Epicurus" again.
It may be that evolution will lose, and some religion or other picks up the pieces of civilization.
Or that evolution will be incorporated into theism the same way astronomy has been, though Kopernikus's revolution required a total redefinition of "heaven" and other related concepts.
Epikouros (-341 - -270) wrote:Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
DrMatt wrote:Or that evolution will be incorporated into theism the same way astronomy has been, though Kopernikus's revolution required a total redefinition of "heaven" and other related concepts.
"Theism" maybe, but not Christianity.

There is the matter of original sin. Unlike Copernican astronomy, evolution precludes a core doctrine.

We are back to Chirstianity == niceness.
The matter of original sin is still embraced by the Catholics, the same folks who teach evolution in their parochial schools. Evolution hasn't made any significant inroads into Christianity. Communication techologies, have made inroads into parochialism. And religions self-defining as "we're the nice people, everybody else is nasty" has been going on since before Epicurus too.
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Post by hammegk »

Abdul Alhazred wrote: In the context of western Christian thought, evolution with God in it is a rear-guard action by institutional religionists.
Of course intelligent theists have no problem with OEC and evolution.

The apparent teleology in all evolution, from universe-to-now cosmologically, or from first life to man, is there for all to see, whether explained as random or ordained. And abiogenesis remains unanswered by any science to date.

For schoolkids, make this plain, or don't teach it. Yeah, I know the courts have decided those provisos are a no-no. Hence the demand for private schools or home-schooling.