Wind Turbines

We are the Borg.
ed
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Wind Turbines

Post by ed »

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... v=top-news

Interesting, mainly for the videos.

Not a mention of anything negative, journalism at it's finest.

<off topic>
You lot tell me if I am going crazy
Not a mention of impact on wildlife or what impact low frequency thrumming might have on humans.

It is as if our rulers have determined that this is a "solution" which will be implemented come hell or high water without regard to consequences. And that the media drumbeat will just support the accepted point of view.

</off topic>
Rob Lister
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister »

ed wrote: You lot tell me if I am going crazy
Not a mention of impact on wildlife ...
Certainly nothing to crow about
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/wind/pdfs/ ... _sheet.pdf
Nor to have a cow about.
edwina wrote:or what impact low frequency thrumming might have on humans.
Certainly irritating
Spoiler:
https://i.imgur.com/rstJ3hF.jpg
but no more harmful than your cellphone.
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/122-a20/
It's like living next to a busy highway where the traffic never ceases. Please, NIMBY.

The real issue is that every kW of wind has to be backed up by a kW of something reliable, predictable. This effectively doubles the levelized cost per kW, and necessarily increases the cost per kWh as well, but not necessarily double it.
ed
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by ed »

Rob Lister wrote:
ed wrote: You lot tell me if I am going crazy
Not a mention of impact on wildlife ...
Certainly nothing to crow about
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/wind/pdfs/ ... _sheet.pdf
Nor to have a cow about.
edwina wrote:or what impact low frequency thrumming might have on humans.
Certainly irritating
Spoiler:
https://i.imgur.com/rstJ3hF.jpg
but no more harmful than your cellphone.
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/122-a20/
It's like living next to a busy highway where the traffic never ceases. Please, NIMBY.

The real issue is that every kW of wind has to be backed up by a kW of something reliable, predictable. This effectively doubles the levelized cost per kW, and necessarily increases the cost per kWh as well, but not necessarily double it.
Well, the fucking snowflakes have a cow over a goddamn spotted owl. Guess this is another point of subjective equality between death and supposed benefit.

As long as you are not a fetus or an old fucker or a bat you are probably ok.

ETA edwina?????????????????????? :x :x :x
Witness
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

ed wrote:old fucker
Hey! Endangered species! Hands of!!! :x

gnome
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by gnome »

ed wrote:
Well, the fucking snowflakes have a cow over a goddamn spotted owl. Guess this is another point of subjective equality between death and supposed benefit.
Or the difference between impact to species that are considered "threatened" and those that are not.
ed
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by ed »

ScreenShot366.jpg
Why do you hate gentle songbirds, Gnome?
gnome
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by gnome »

It's not like these are insurmountable issues.

https://grist.org/climate-energy/for-th ... ollisions/
ed
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by ed »

When there is a turbine off Hyannisport, I'll be a believer.
Witness
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

https://i.imgur.com/zTHAucp.jpg

More data: https://www.worldenergy.org/data/resour ... urce/wind/
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by sparks »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Do the turbines pulverize the songbirds, or is there a fairly intact carcase afterwards?

If the latter, selling them to the French would be a good side business. 8)

manger des ortolans.jpg
Not being a world-wise person, what the fuck is up with the cloths over the heads while eating? I mean, humans do some weird shit, but this is the first time I've ever seen that except when Claude Rains played "The Invisible Man".
4dce099a5952fc4110d4ebd4dabf7dba.jpg
ed
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by ed »

They're French. What more do you need to know?
sparks
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by sparks »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:It's the way to eat ortolans.

White wine and a cloth napkin on the head.

C'est quelque chose de trop français pour que vous compreniez.
You're a big fucking help. Dipshit. :x

(Besides, Gawd sees all!)
Rob Lister
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister »

Witness wrote:https://i.imgur.com/zTHAucp.jpg

More data: https://www.worldenergy.org/data/resour ... urce/wind/
It is an interesting graphic but meaningless without the corresponding capacity factor. For wind it is usually 1/8th (older/landbased) to 1/3rd (newer/offshore) nameplate.
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by sparks »

What's the big deal? So they blow up, kill birds and fall over. I call that a triple win!!
Witness
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:C'est quelque chose de trop français pour que vous compreniez.
Perfect sentence! :figamagee:
The Telegraph wrote:Why French chefs want us to eat this bird – head, bones, beak and all

The customary way of eating ortolan, a delicate songbird, involves the diner covering his or her head with a large napkin. Tradition dictates that this is to shield – from God’s eyes – the shame of such a decadent and disgraceful act. [BS. The real true French-o reason is that none of the delicate perfume must be lost.]
[…]
Killing and selling the bird, a member of the bunting family, has been banned in France since the late 1990s, though the ban was not strictly enforced until 2007. The government, at the time, decided to act after poachers caught vast numbers to supply restaurants. France’s League for the Protection of Birds claimed ortolan numbers plunged 30 per cent between 1997 and 2007 as a result.

But the rarity of the bird is not the only reason why killing it is so controversial. It is the method in which they are dispatched.

Hunters catch the birds using traps set in fields during their migratory season (when they fly to Africa). They are then kept in covered cages, encouraging them to gorge on grain in order to double their size. It is said that Roman Emperors stabbed out ortolans’ eyes in order to make the birds think it was night, making them eat even more.

They are then thrown alive into a vat of Armagnac, a trick that manages to both drown and marinade the animal at the same time. Killing two birds with one glug, as it were.

French chefs argue that “it’s not a bad way to die”.
[…]
Then comes the eating – part pagan ritual, part essay in gluttony. The birds are cooked for eight minutes and served with their heads still attached. After the shame-hiding napkin is placed over the diner’s head (helping, too, to trap the aroma of the dish), the ortolan is popped in its entirety into the diner’s mouth, who then proceeds to eat everything including the head and bones.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrin ... d-all.html

https://i.imgur.com/NK1VgPY.jpg

Details on the bird (which, alas, I've never seen in the wild): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ortolan_bunting.
Ambelopoulia, a Greek custom of eating songbirds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambelopoulia.
Mitterrand's last meal: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/sto ... Id=5223077.

The problem, apart from the culinary part, is the ortolan's distribution. A global map suggests everything's OK:

https://i.imgur.com/dO7C7cn.jpg

But in fact its nesting places are extremely localized, e. g. all of Switzerland here:

https://i.imgur.com/VYUnHLB.jpg

So it's not that difficult to wipe them out.

P. – S. There are projects to reintroduce the Hermit ibis in Europe from colonies in North Africa (Wiki sayeth Morocco, but I've seen them in Algeria), who was exterminated there ~ XVIIth century.
Ugly as sin but allegedly very tasty…
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Anaxagoras »

Witness wrote: Tradition dictates that this is to shield – from God’s eyes – the shame of such a decadent and disgraceful act.
I like it!

Although, one might think fooling an omniscient being would be harder than fooling an infant. :notsure:
Witness
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

Related (or do we have a specific "electric cars" thread?):
Bloomberg wrote:Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry

Electric buses were seen as a joke at an industry conference in Belgium seven years ago when the Chinese manufacturer BYD Co. showed an early model.

“Everyone was laughing at BYD for making a toy,” recalled Isbrand Ho, the Shenzhen-based company’s managing director in Europe. “And look now. Everyone has one.”

Suddenly, buses with battery-powered motors are a serious matter with the potential to revolutionize city transport—and add to the forces reshaping the energy industry. With China leading the way, making the traditional smog-belching diesel behemoth run on electricity is starting to eat away at fossil fuel demand.

The numbers are staggering. China had about 99 percent of the 385,000 electric buses on the roads worldwide in 2017, accounting for 17 percent of the country’s entire fleet. Every five weeks, Chinese cities add 9,500 of the zero-emissions transporters—the equivalent of London’s entire working fleet, according Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

All this is starting to make an observable reduction in fuel demand. And because they consume 30 times more fuel than average sized cars, their impact on energy use so far has become much greater than the than the passenger sedans produced companies from Tesla Inc. to Toyota Motor Corp.

For every 1,000 battery-powered buses on the road, about 500 barrels a day of diesel fuel will be displaced from the market, according to BNEF calculations. This year, the volume of fuel buses take off the market may rise 37 percent to 279,000 barrels a day, about as much oil as Greece consumes, according to BNEF.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... l-industry

https://i.imgur.com/iHGYz0U.png
gnome
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by gnome »

Witness wrote:
The Telegraph wrote:Why French chefs want us to eat this bird – head, bones, beak and all
Et le dos
Et le dos
Et le cou
Et le cou
Et le nez
Et le nez
Et le bec
Et le bec
Et la tete
Et la tete

je te plumerai
Rob Lister
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister »

Witness wrote:Related (or do we have a specific "electric cars" thread?):
We have several electric car/truck/even train threads, but this will do.
Bloomberg wrote:Electric Buses Are Hurting the Oil Industry
...

For every 1,000 battery-powered buses on the road, about 500 barrels a day of diesel fuel will be displaced from the market, according to BNEF calculations. This year, the volume of fuel buses take off the market may rise 37 percent to 279,000 barrels a day, about as much oil as Greece consumes, according to BNEF.[/url]


Electric buses seem to make sense. In terms of efficiency, they operate in the worst possible conditions. Stop/go/stop/go/stop/go. The downside is A) having to carry the weight of the batteries (several times heavier than the weight of a diesel engine plus fuel) and B) long recharge times. But for a bus, that's okay as long as 1) it has regenerative braking and 2) the batteries last a full working day.

The Long Tailpipe arguments notwithstanding.

OTOH, I don't think the "oil industry" is much concerned.
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister »

You have been reported for off-topic comment.

Witness has been rewarded.
Rob Lister
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister »

This is why you don't have boyfriends.
Rob Lister
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:This is why you don't have boyfriends.
I'm pretty sure it's some other reason. :De_Bunk:
And you keep trying to fix the other reason. How's that working out?
Witness
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

gnome wrote:Et le cou
Et le cou
Et le nez
Et le nez
Et le bec
Et le bec
Et la tete
Et la tete

je te plumerai
Actually it's about a lark…



:mrgreen:
Witness
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:I seem to recall from somewhere or other, that includes the intestines and the content of same.
Another bird the Froggies eat nearly whole, the woodcock:

https://i.imgur.com/wQqVqb3.jpg

The entrails are full of worms, which allegedly makes them particularly tasty. Cooked inside the carcass, they afterwards get mixed with cream and foie gras. Recipe: http://gamelleprod.canalblog.com/archiv ... 98711.html

Bon appétit! :BlowChunks:
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by gnome »

This is my version:

Witness
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

↑ Yep, I hesitated between the two, but the goofy Comets won finally. :mrgreen:
Witness
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

https://i.imgur.com/acbggFM.jpg
1888: The first known US wind turbine created for electricity production is built by inventor Charles Brush to provide electricity for his mansion in Ohio.
From History of Wind Turbines (up to 2013).
Rob Lister
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister »

in 1888 there was much to be learned about efficiency of turbines.

I'll bet it turned very slow. And Betz probably rolled over in his crib.
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by sparks »

Witness wrote:https://i.imgur.com/acbggFM.jpg
1888: The first known US wind turbine created for electricity production is built by inventor Charles Brush to provide electricity for his mansion in Ohio.
From History of Wind Turbines (up to 2013).
Early failed attempt at radio telescope.
Witness
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

sparks wrote:Early failed attempt at radio telescope.
Failed? That's what THEY want you to believe! :o
Witness
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

Rob Lister wrote:[big snip]

OTOH, I don't think the "oil industry" is much concerned.
Electrek wrote:Oil industry is finally starting to be affected by Norway’s rapid electric car adoption

Norway’s electric vehicle adoption rate is so far ahead of most countries that it gives us glimpses into the future of bigger markets – sometimes even decades ahead of time.

Now it is starting to show signs of demand for gasoline and diesel slowing down as electric vehicles are taking over.

In Norway, the market share of electric vehicles has hit over 50% of new cars over the last year, which is higher than in any other county.

That’s the latest record, but it also maintained double-digit market share since the latest rise in popularity of new electric vehicles, like Tesla’s and the Nissan Leaf, over the past 4 years.

But it takes a long time to replace a country-wide fleet of passenger cars, which is why EVs still account for less than 10% of all cars on the roads in Norway.

It’s still a significant part of the fleet and the oil industry should see an impact, but the EV adoption didn’t keep up with the growth of the industry, which led to continued growth over the period – until now.

The Norweigan government released its final 2017 figures for Sales of Petroleum Products and for the first time since at least 2014, Norway’s consumption of gasoline and diesel declined across the board, Forbes report:
“Motor gasoline sales declined by 2.9%, dutiable diesel fell by 2.7%, and duty-free diesel declined by 2.6%. This decline follows sales that were flat in 2014, and then grew by 1% in 2015 and 3.2% in 2016. Overall petroleum product sales declined by 2.2%, although some categories of consumption, such as heavy fuel oil, jet kerosene, and other petroleum products all showed higher consumption.”
In other words, it’s the first time that demand for petroleum products used in cars has fallen since the EV revolution has started to pick up steam in Norway.

Some experts see this as the first sign of the growing EV fleet starting to have an impact on the oil industry.

Norway, itself an important petroleum producer, has been investing heavily into reducing its dependence on its own products.
https://electrek.co/2018/05/28/oil-indu ... -adoption/

Reminds me of Kodak and the rise of digital. They gutted their research labs in the early 80ies (if memory serves well), but it was already too late.
Of course oil has other uses than burning it to commute… :mrgreen:
Rob Lister
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister »

Witness wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:[big snip]

OTOH, I don't think the "oil industry" is much concerned.
Electrek wrote:Oil industry is finally starting to be affected by Norway’s rapid electric car adoption

“Motor gasoline sales declined by 2.9%, dutiable diesel fell by 2.7%, and duty-free diesel declined by 2.6%. This decline follows sales that were flat in 2014, and then grew by 1% in 2015 and 3.2% in 2016. Overall petroleum product sales declined by 2.2%, although some categories of consumption, such as heavy fuel oil, jet kerosene, and other petroleum products all showed higher consumption.”
Norway, itself an important petroleum producer, has been investing heavily into reducing its dependence on its own products.
https://electrek.co/2018/05/28/oil-indu ... -adoption/

Reminds me of Kodak and the rise of digital. They gutted their research labs in the early 80ies (if memory serves well), but it was already too late.
Of course oil has other uses than burning it to commute… :mrgreen:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say this ain't a Kodak moment. Something else is going on. Looking at the raw data (linked by your link), the biggest decline (-8%) was in marine gas oil and diesel. I've never seen an electric ship bigger than a bass boat.
https://www.ssb.no/en/energi-og-industr ... umsalg/aar

Folks are getting their gas elsewhere?
https://i.imgur.com/hqVnM7T.png

Their treatment of oil products is certainly odd given that it makes up ~65% of their exports. Still a big meh, but weird.
ed
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by ed »

Witness wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:I seem to recall from somewhere or other, that includes the intestines and the content of same.
Another bird the Froggies eat nearly whole, the woodcock:

https://i.imgur.com/wQqVqb3.jpg

The entrails are full of worms, which allegedly makes them particularly tasty. Cooked inside the carcass, they afterwards get mixed with cream and foie gras. Recipe: http://gamelleprod.canalblog.com/archiv ... 98711.html

Bon appétit! :BlowChunks:
The final episode of Billions shows three guys eating these critters with napkins o their heads and all.

Fairly disgusting.
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by sparks »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers are "electric boats" :p

http://www.gdeb.com/
Nuclear AA. Nuclear.

Lot's of boats are electric. Oil burns, boils the water to make steam, steam turns the turbine, which turns the generator, which provides the electricity which powers the electric motors which turn the shafts which etc.

Lots of transportation is now electric. But someone somewhere is burning something to make that electricity. Economy of scale improves the overall efficiency but doesn't solve the innate problems associated with burning shit.
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by sparks »

Indeed.
Witness
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

Rob Lister wrote:Folks are getting their gas elsewhere?
:figamagee:

I like the idea of rough fishermen getting their tax-free diesel fuel at some shady port. :mrgreen:
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness »

World first as wind turbine upgraded with high temperature superconductor

Superconductors are breaking into the energy industry for the first time after a conventional, working wind turbine had its permanent magnets replaced by superconducting tape. The switch means that it’s possible to build lighter, smaller wind turbines that are less dependent on expensive rare earth elements. This means that the price tag of turbines could fall and, in turn, cut energy costs.

Wind turbine generators today use permanent magnets, often neodymium–iron–boron ones, which makes them heavy. Just like a bicycle dynamo, these magnets turn inside coils that transform magnetic power into electricity. They require substantial quantities of rare earth metals, however, which are expensive and are mostly mined in just one country – China – which has led to worries over security of supply.

Generators could be made from superconducting magnets, however, offering significant savings in size and weight. ‘We can make a machine that will deliver the same amount of power for roughly half the weight and half the volume of a regular wind turbine,’ says Marc Dhalle, materials scientist at the University of Twente in the Netherlands. The EU-funded project, EcoSwing, was coordinated by Danish turbine company Envision.

The new generator is 4m in diameter, 1.5m smaller than a conventional one. It sits inside an 88m high 3.6MW turbine in Thyboron, Denmark.
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/wor ... 80.article
Rob Lister
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister »

Witness wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:44 am
World first as wind turbine upgraded with high temperature superconductor

Superconductors are breaking into the energy industry for the first time after a conventional, working wind turbine had its permanent magnets replaced by superconducting tape. The switch means that it’s possible to build lighter, smaller wind turbines that are less dependent on expensive rare earth elements. This means that the price tag of turbines could fall and, in turn, cut energy costs.

Wind turbine generators today use permanent magnets, often neodymium–iron–boron ones, which makes them heavy. Just like a bicycle dynamo, these magnets turn inside coils that transform magnetic power into electricity. They require substantial quantities of rare earth metals, however, which are expensive and are mostly mined in just one country – China – which has led to worries over security of supply.

Generators could be made from superconducting magnets, however, offering significant savings in size and weight. ‘We can make a machine that will deliver the same amount of power for roughly half the weight and half the volume of a regular wind turbine,’ says Marc Dhalle, materials scientist at the University of Twente in the Netherlands. The EU-funded project, EcoSwing, was coordinated by Danish turbine company Envision.

The new generator is 4m in diameter, 1.5m smaller than a conventional one. It sits inside an 88m high 3.6MW turbine in Thyboron, Denmark.
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/wor ... 80.article
I'd be interested to see the operational costs. Liquid nitrogen ain't cheap, energy-wise or in terms of the equipment needed to produce it. The otherwise wasted energy produced by the windmill during non-peak hours could be used to liquefy the nitrogen I suppose but the cost of the refrigeration equipment is going to eat any savings made by not using rare-earth magnets. I'm betting it's less than a wash.

I'm skeptical.
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Bruce »

Even without the liquid nitrogen, I'm skeptical about the long term viability of wind turbines. It's nice that there's world-wide interest in investments to build these things, but the idea is that they will eventually pay for themselves. They don't produce much power in the first place, so making them "more efficient" with liquid nitrogen isn't going to help much.

My parents still live in northwest Ohio where I grew up, as do most of my aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. I have some cousins that own farmland in that area. A few years ago, a group came through offering to pay top dollar for little squares of their farmland to build wind turbines. The farmers thought it was a terrible idea because the wind rarely blows in this area of the country except during thunderstorms, which are rare, and the wind is too strong to allow the wind turbines to spin in a storm anyway. Of course, the salesmen weren't engineers so they ignored all this, and the farmers needed the money, so the deals were struck. Now there is a ~10 square mile region where you can see wind turbines from horizon to horizon in all directions. It's creepy. Unreal. It's like you're living in the future. It's especially creepy at night because there are red lights on top of each turbine that all blink slowly in unison, from horizon to horizon, like some alien heart beat. Imagine trying to sleep in this area with a pulsing red glow coming through your window.

The locals hate them. Most of the time, none of them are turning. The local power companies got stuck with the bill, so they tried getting the locals to sign up for the much more expensive "green power" option, on account that the power comes in part from the wind turbines, which are never turning. Of course, they don't generate enough power to supply even a fraction of the local community, so even if you do sign up for this option, most of that money is going toward paying off the bill for building the turbines, and 99+% of your power is still coming from coal/nuclear.

My prediction is that these monsters will need costly maintenance (gear and brake replacement, rust removal, blade sharpening, etc) long before that cost to build them in the first place is paid off. Once the general public starts waking up to find that wind farms are money pits, they will be abandoned. Thousands of giant, rusting eyesores, all over the world.

The biggest haters of wind turbines at the moment are ecologists, particularly those interested in birds. The land beneath these turbines are littered with hundreds of dead birds, who can't see or feel the blades before it's too late. I saw a red-tail hawk get massacred by one with my own eyes while visiting home a couple years ago. :freedom:

Not to mention that these things are a hazard to locals who live underneath them. When they fly apart, the debris is thrown for up to a mile. Would you want to live within a mile of one of these things during a storm? Each blade is 30 feet long, which is longer than a typical tractor trailer.

http://gif-finder.com/wp-content/upload ... losion.gif

Oh, and they were build on muddy clay soil and there wasn't much forethought into digging into the ground to ensure that they have a stable base.......so.....they sometimes fall down.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DopeyNaughtyH ... ricted.gif

Oopsies. Good thing there wasn't a house, or a cow, or a child playing underneath that one.

Oh, and they can catch on fire....more than you think.....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/ ... -warn.html

http://www.cfact.org/wp-content/uploads ... urbine.jpg

As you can tell, I'm not a fan of wind turbines

It's been 40 years since we've built a nuclear power plant. The technology has come a very long way. It might even be possible to build a solid state nuclear power plant that doesn't burn down and produces little to no waste. Can we please drop this silly hippy dream of sustainable wind farms and go back to the nukes please? :(
Rob Lister
Posts: 23535
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister »

Bruce wrote:I'm not a fan of wind turbines
I don't get it. :|

Tennessee's Watts Bar Unit 2 went online June 2016. Unit 1, May 1996. But I don't expect the 300 more that we need in my lifetime.