Ivermectin study questioned

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Anaxagoras
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Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Anaxagoras »

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/st ... spect-data

Sounds fishy:
“If you take it, you will not get sick,” an ivermectin-boosting physician told a Senate committee in December, describing it as a “wonder drug” and citing in part the trial “from Argentina.”

But there are signs that at least some of the experiments — as written up in a paper published in November — didn’t happen as advertised. After BuzzFeed News raised questions about how the study’s data was collected and analyzed, a representative from the Journal of Biomedical Research and Clinical Investigation, which published the results, said late Monday, “We will remove the paper temporarily.” A link was removed from the table of contents — but was reinstated by Thursday. The journal’s explanation, provided after this story was published, was that the author “informed us that he has already provided the evidence of his study to the media.”

The numbers, genders, and ages of the study’s participants were inconsistent. A hospital named in the paper as taking part in the experiments said it has no record of it happening. Health officials in the province of Buenos Aires have also said that they also have no record of the study receiving local approval.

And the researcher overseeing the project, Hector Carvallo, a retired endocrinologist and professor of internal medicine at the University of Buenos Aires, has declined to widely share his data — including with one of his own collaborators, emails show.

In short, independent experts told BuzzFeed News, the oft-cited study has so many red flags that it is, at best, unreliable.

“There is no way in which I could see a trial that actually occurred producing a pattern like this,” said Kyle Sheldrick, a doctor in Sydney and one of the critics who brought the study’s discrepancies to light.

Carvallo, 64, said the study was real. “We would never make up a study because it’s not ethical,” he told BuzzFeed News.
Doctor X
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Doctor X »

It is not as if I posted a QuackWatch post on that very subject, 馬鹿. . . .

– J.D.
Anaxagoras
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Anaxagoras »

Sorry 'bout that. I see it now.

There's multiple threads on the topic and I haven't been keeping up with them all.

Maybe it deserves its own topic though?
Doctor X
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Doctor X »

Perhaps, but as far as I am aware, there is only one sockpuppet who advocated it, and by advocated, I mean he simply declared it is quite efficacious, and everyone knows it, and, no, he cannot actually provide "evidences" – thanks – for it, because reasons, and ran away from a simple paper on the subject.

You can lead that whore to culture, but you cannot make her think.

Is there anyone else?

That pontificated, actual studies on anything is helpful.

– J.D.
Fid
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Fid »

"He died of Covid19 but by god his crab lice and scabies died first. Oh and he owned the libs"
xouper
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by xouper »

The chairman of the Tokyo Medical Association, Haruo Ozaki, held a press conference this week announcing that the anti-parasite medicine Ivermectin seems to be effective at stopping COVID-19 and publicly recommending that all doctors in Japan immediately begin using Ivermectin to treat COVID.

. . . Another prominent Japanese physician, Dr. Kazuhiro Nagao, appeared on Japanese television proposing that COVID-19 should be treated as a Class 5 illness as opposed to its current classification as a Class 2. In Japan, illnesses are categorized by a classification system; approaching COVID as a Class 5 illness would mean that it could be treated like a seasonal flu.

Dr. Nagao said he has used Ivermectin as an early treatment for over 500 COVID patients with practically a 100% success rate, and that it should be used nationwide.
I don't know anything about his website, and thus cannot vouch for it: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/break ... for-covid/

Obviously they are a bunch of crackpots reporting fake news.
Fid
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Fid »

Maybe but when ya start with this ...
'While the list of crimes committed by authorities during the COVID-19 pandemic is a long one, perhaps the biggest crime of all is the purposeful suppression of safe and effective treatments.' It does give one pause, no?
xouper
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by xouper »

Fid wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:27 am Maybe but when ya start with this ...
'While the list of crimes committed by authorities during the COVID-19 pandemic is a long one, perhaps the biggest crime of all is the purposeful suppression of safe and effective treatments.' It does give one pause, no?
That's a valid question. There are plenty of "experts" on both sides of that issue**, so it depends on which experts one chooses to believe. One of the factors to consider is which side is trying to censor and bully the other side as opposed to trying to make the stronger argument?


** Footnote: On the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of ivermectin in the treatment of covid.
Anaxagoras
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Anaxagoras »

xouper wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:12 am
The chairman of the Tokyo Medical Association, Haruo Ozaki, held a press conference this week announcing that the anti-parasite medicine Ivermectin seems to be effective at stopping COVID-19 and publicly recommending that all doctors in Japan immediately begin using Ivermectin to treat COVID.

. . . Another prominent Japanese physician, Dr. Kazuhiro Nagao, appeared on Japanese television proposing that COVID-19 should be treated as a Class 5 illness as opposed to its current classification as a Class 2. In Japan, illnesses are categorized by a classification system; approaching COVID as a Class 5 illness would mean that it could be treated like a seasonal flu.

Dr. Nagao said he has used Ivermectin as an early treatment for over 500 COVID patients with practically a 100% success rate, and that it should be used nationwide.
I don't know anything about his website, and thus cannot vouch for it: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/break ... for-covid/

Obviously they are a bunch of crackpots reporting fake news.
I clicked the link to see that a correction to the article has been made. I don't know if that was before or after you read it.
Correction: Thanks to a LifeSite reader it was discovered that this press conference was held in February of 2021 and NOT August as some others and then we reported. LifeSite regrets the error and corrections have been made. LifeSite always appreciates such information from readers. We will now be investigating whether the chairman’s recommendation was implemented and the results of either implementation or ignoring of the recommendation.
As far as the reputation of the website itself, I think it is mainly a pro-life (anti-abortion) activist website. May not mean what they are reporting is wrong, but there is a political slant to it. In this case, it appears from this correction that they were simply repeating what "some others" had reported without independently fact-checking it. It took a reader informing them that the information was incorrect to realize their error.

I did a little bit of checking around on the internet to see if this guy is legit, and at least he does seem to exist:

https://www.tokyo.med.or.jp/about/message

As to whether ivermectin is being widely used in Japan for the treatment of Covid-19, I can't seem to to find anything authoritative about that. The treatment I do hear a lot about these days is a so-called "antibody cocktail" (抗体カクテル).

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/f0576 ... dd66d83a17

I don't know how well that works either, but I seem to remember they gave something similar to president Trump when he had it.

Here is information in English about it:

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021041 ... otection#1
Anaxagoras
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Anaxagoras »

Better Data on Ivermectin Is Finally on Its Way
Doctor X
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Doctor X »

I tried to suggest to a sockpuppet that if he, you know, read one of the studies that took me five seconds to find a few months ago, he would see some indications of efficacy. It was a small study.

The thing about SCIENCE [! – Ed.] is it is, you know like reality, reproducible. Drugs do not "only work some of the time" if they are efficacious. A drug that produces the results that the fans, such as the one quoted above, tote does not "sometimes" work. It works. You can show it works. You cannot hide the results any more than you can hide the diuretic effects of furosimide or alcohol.

So one would expect larger and better studies to come out that would establish efficacy.

Yet they did not.

Compare that to successful treatments.

Since this pandemic has become politicized by fanboys from both sides, the simple dichotomy of "it work/it not work" becomes a confession of faith rather than fact.

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by xouper »

  • Heavily vaccinated state accounts for 65% of India’s COVID cases after rejecting ivermectin
    https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz ... ivermectin
    The Indian state of Kerala has 3% of India's population, and 67% of its inhabitants have at least one vaccination. One would expect Kerala's COVID cases to be so low as to be invisible in a chart of India's very low overall cases. Yet this state of just 33 million people accounted for 65% of all of India's cases on Thursday, and even more in recent weeks. It has essentially been the only state experiencing a surge in recent months. It also happens to be the Indian state that has rejected ivermectin.
Must be fake news. Everyone knows ivermectin isn't effective for treating covid. Right?
Pyrrho
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Pyrrho »

xouper wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:52 pm
  • Heavily vaccinated state accounts for 65% of India’s COVID cases after rejecting ivermectin
    https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz ... ivermectin
    The Indian state of Kerala has 3% of India's population, and 67% of its inhabitants have at least one vaccination. One would expect Kerala's COVID cases to be so low as to be invisible in a chart of India's very low overall cases. Yet this state of just 33 million people accounted for 65% of all of India's cases on Thursday, and even more in recent weeks. It has essentially been the only state experiencing a surge in recent months. It also happens to be the Indian state that has rejected ivermectin.
Must be fake news. Everyone knows ivermectin isn't effective for treating covid. Right?
You know what the old saw is about the word "assume". I think the situation is more complicated than that. I'm not finding any factual analysis, just the opinion pieces.

My opinion, worth $0.02 USD, is that hospitals that are known to be strained because of the increased burden of COVID-19 patients would damned well be using ivermectin to get patients healthy enough to leave the hospital. It is simply not in a physician's or health care institution's interest to not use a simple, safe, and effective treatment under those circumstances.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Doctor X »

Pyrrho wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:41 pmIt is simply not in a physician's or health care institution's interest to not use a simple, safe, and effective treatment under those circumstances.
BIG PHARMA!11!!!1!!! [! – Ed.]

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by xouper »

Pyrrho wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:41 pm My opinion, worth $0.02 USD, is that hospitals that are known to be strained because of the increased burden of COVID-19 patients would damned well be using ivermectin to get patients healthy enough to leave the hospital. It is simply not in a physician's or health care institution's interest to not use a simple, safe, and effective treatment under those circumstances.
Once Upon A Time, that was my opinion too.

Who was it said: "I think the situation is more complicated than that."
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Pyrrho »

xouper wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:39 am
Pyrrho wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:41 pm My opinion, worth $0.02 USD, is that hospitals that are known to be strained because of the increased burden of COVID-19 patients would damned well be using ivermectin to get patients healthy enough to leave the hospital. It is simply not in a physician's or health care institution's interest to not use a simple, safe, and effective treatment under those circumstances.
Once Upon A Time, that was my opinion too.

Who was it said: "I think the situation is more complicated than that."
Are you being sarcastic with me? If so, I won't waste any more of your time.

I will leave it at this: citation of statistics does not inform regarding clinical data, possible routes of infection, etc. Whether or not ivermectin was used is only one aspect of a body of data that is necessary in order to arrive at a reasoned conclusion, even if that conclusion is provisional depending upon evaluation of additional evidence. Articles such as the one cited are insufficient. An example of information other than ivermectin use that could affect the case count:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-58054124
The percentage of people who test positive for the virus from the overall numbers being tested has hovered above 10% for a month. Kerala has recorded 3.4 million infections and 16,837 deaths from Covid-19 so far.

But these disturbing numbers don't tell you the whole story, say epidemiologists.

Kerala, they say, is testing a lot more people - more than double the people per million compared to the rest of the country. It has kept infection levels in control.

The state is capturing one out of every two infections compared to other states which are catching one out of 30-odd infections. "Kerala is testing more, and testing smarter. By tracing contacts to find out real cases, testing is also better targeted," says Dr Gagandeep Kang, one of India's top virologists.
xouper
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by xouper »

Pyrrho wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:46 am
xouper wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:39 am
Pyrrho wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:41 pm My opinion, worth $0.02 USD, is that hospitals that are known to be strained because of the increased burden of COVID-19 patients would damned well be using ivermectin to get patients healthy enough to leave the hospital. It is simply not in a physician's or health care institution's interest to not use a simple, safe, and effective treatment under those circumstances.
Once Upon A Time, that was my opinion too.

Who was it said: "I think the situation is more complicated than that."
Are you being sarcastic with me?
Not at all. I have a great deal of respect for you and your opinions.

Since we seemed to be sharing opinions, I was just sharing mine.

In any case, sorry, I didn't mean it to be taken the way it came across to you.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Hotarubi »

I'm just pleased all of the Doyens of Pharmaceutical and Medical research are gathered in one place on this forum, and that newspapers , web links from non-medical sources and twitter posts that agree with their theories are such a valuable and accurate source of information.

Probably saved my life.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by sparks »

I mean, imagine... Just fucking imagine... a treatment designed and targeted for parasites coming up being the silver bullet for Covid. Well, long shots do come in once in a while, don't they?

NOT.

One could wait until the heat death of the Cosmos and never beat those odds.

Oh, and fuck.
xouper
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by xouper »

sparks wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:35 pm I mean, imagine... Just fucking imagine... a treatment designed and targeted for parasites coming up being the silver bullet for Covid. Well, long shots do come in once in a while, don't they?

NOT.

One could wait until the heat death of the Cosmos and never beat those odds.
Someone please post the Latin name for that fallacy?
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by ceptimus »

sparks wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:35 pm One could wait until the heat death of the Cosmos and never beat those odds.
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1476 ... 161016.png
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by sparks »

xouper wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:48 pm
sparks wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:35 pm I mean, imagine... Just fucking imagine... a treatment designed and targeted for parasites coming up being the silver bullet for Covid. Well, long shots do come in once in a while, don't they?

NOT.

One could wait until the heat death of the Cosmos and never beat those odds.
Someone please post the Latin name for that fallacy?
We're waiting....

And while we wait, have a cup of bleach bitch. :)
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Doctor X »

The Turks have yet to show up with their gold treasure this month.

– J. "But Gold is Honorable!" D.
xouper
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by xouper »

sparks wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:38 am
xouper wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:48 pm
sparks wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:35 pm I mean, imagine... Just fucking imagine... a treatment designed and targeted for parasites coming up being the silver bullet for Covid. Well, long shots do come in once in a while, don't they?

NOT.

One could wait until the heat death of the Cosmos and never beat those odds.
Someone please post the Latin name for that fallacy?
We're waiting....

And while we wait, have a cup of bleach bitch. :)
I don't know the Latin for the main fallacy you used.

If I were to hazard a guess, I am tempted to say argumentum ad incredulitatem.

What I do know is that your proposition has several fatal flaws.
  • Argument from incredulity. Your failure to imagine how it might be possible is not a valid argument against it.
  • Assignment of probability based on faulty and unsupported assumptions.
  • You are making the same flawed argument (argument from improbability) used by creationists against evolution. I confess, I am shocked you even tried that gambit, especially on a skeptic forum.
  • Argument from ignorance of the fact that so-called "off label" prescriptions are common. Drugs that are approved by the FDA for one thing are routinely prescribed as treatment of other unrelated things. Many doctors do it and it is not generally illegal. See for example:
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drugs_known_for_off-label_use
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-label_use
  • Argument from ignorance of the fact that ivermectin has already been shown to be effective against the virus in lab experiments, and thus it should not be a surprise if it also worked in humans. Whether it works in humans as an effective treatment for the covid virus has not yet been established to the full satisfaction of some people.

I could say more, but those five things are sufficient to demolish your argument.

And your comment about drinking bleach is also ignorant. I shall assume that you are not actually advocating anyone should drink bleach, but rather that you are merely making a lame reference to a previously (and thoroughly) debunked claim about what a certain famous person was falsely accused of saying.

Perhaps most telling is your advocacy against what might well prove to be an effective treatment. Many doctors are prescribing ivermectin and reporting successful results. That should be seen as a good thing, yes? So why are you fighting so hard against that?

In a pandemic that is killing lots of people, why are you against trying something that shows good promise? Seriously. Why?
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by sparks »

"In a pandemic that is killing lots of people, why are you against trying something that shows good promise? Seriously. Why?"

Because I don't buy it.

"Whether it works in humans as an effective treatment for the covid virus has not yet been established to the full satisfaction of some people."

Soon as the FDA says horse wormer is a great treatment for Covid, I'll be happy to eat my words.

And no, I'm not really advocating anyone drink bleach. Some have and the results were bad to say the least. :)
xouper
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by xouper »

sparks wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:41 pm "In a pandemic that is killing lots of people, why are you against trying something that shows good promise? Seriously. Why?"

Because I don't buy it.
Are you seriously saying that medical professionals should not try a promising treatment on the basis that you "don't buy it"?

Why should they care what you think?

So far, your argument against it seems be to a flawed argument from incredulity. You "don't buy it". :roll:

If you are also adding "because the FDA has not yet given its approval", then that too is not a valid argument against medical professionals trying a promising treatment in the middle of a pandemic that is killing people.

sparks wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:41 pm "Whether it works in humans as an effective treatment for the covid virus has not yet been established to the full satisfaction of some people."

Soon as the FDA says horse wormer is a great treatment for Covid, I'll be happy to eat my words.
The mere fact that you disparagingly characterize a popular and life-saving drug for humans (a Nobel Prize winning drug at that) as merely a "horse dewormer", that tells me all I need to know about your ignorant prejudices on the matter.

Carry on.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by sparks »

You be sure and let us know when the FDA weighs in so I'll know what I'm having for dinner that evening, Umkay?
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by xouper »

sparks wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 pm You be sure and let us know when the FDA weighs in so I'll know what I'm having for dinner that evening, Umkay?
Evasion noted.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by ceptimus »

Who decides what's a "promising treatment"? Shouldn't that be the medical professionals? It's dangerous to let politicians and salespeople decide what's "promising." There have been plenty of quack treatments for COVID proposed and debunked already. It's wise to assume that fresh "promising treatments" being talked up on the internet, are also ineffective, and maybe even harmful, until reputable and repeatable scientific trials have established that they do provide a useful treatment instead of, or alongside, existing proven beneficial treatments.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Fid »

"Who decides what's a "promising treatment"?

Well duhh... Youtube and any fucktard that has an internet connection. You do realize we are in a post science time.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Hotarubi »

Fid wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:20 pm "Who decides what's a "promising treatment"?

Well duhh... Youtube and any fucktard that has an internet connection. You do realize we are in a post science time.
Have you noticed that as soon as Indians stopped drinking cow piss their numbers went apeshit?

Coincidence? I think not.

There's even a 7 month old news item on how piss works. Which I'm clinging to.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Doctor X »

Noblesse oblige. . . .
sparks wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:41 pm "In a pandemic that is killing lots of people, why are you against trying something that shows good promise? Seriously. Why?"

Because I don't buy it.
It has shown no promise, and the proponent typically cannot provide evidence for this "promise" beyond butt-hurt.
"Whether it works in humans as an effective treatment for the covid virus has not yet been established to the full satisfaction of some [Sic – Ed.] people."
To anyone who valued evidence and reality.
Soon as the FDA says horse wormer is a great treatment for Covid, I'll be happy to eat my words.
It is not a wormer, it has been used successfully in human for something completely different. I, for one, demand to know why ipecac is not used for Covid Rescue [Tm. – Ed.].
And no, I'm not really advocating anyone drink bleach. Some have and the results were bad to say the least. :)
The only one I am aware who actually did is Silky:



For her own good. . . .

– J.D.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by xouper »

ceptimus wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:02 pm Who decides what's a "promising treatment"?
Not me. I am not qualified to make that call. I am simply citing medical professionals on that point.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by xouper »

Doctor X wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:52 am Noblesse oblige. . . .
sparks wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:41 pm "In a pandemic that is killing lots of people, why are you against trying something that shows good promise? Seriously. Why?"

Because I don't buy it.
It has shown no promise,
There are medical professionals who say otherwise.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Hotarubi »

I've found a few Indian Medical professional advocating cow piss.

Which makes it legit realz. BECAUSE THEY SAY IT IS!

Rrmember- don't dis the piss. Its FACTuals.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Doctor X »

There is actually years centuries of Yoga Science that advocates drinking ones own urine.

You cannot argue against years centuries.

Granted, a cow is probably cleaner than you.

– J.D.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Hotarubi »

Yes but do "medical professionals" like chiropodists, porters, the Guy in the charity shop and the guy who burns the "bits in the bin" after operations endorse the libation of the micturation?

If only there were something ridiculous like clinical trials in the 13 centuries since it was touted that could clear this all up for us.
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by Doctor X »

Look, I am not giving evidences – thanks – it is all out there and everyone knows this.

– J.D.
ceptimus
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by ceptimus »

If I tell you that there are remote valleys in Laos where one variety of the apples grown there have blue skins, would you believe me? We have other blue fruits and vegetables, so we know it might be possible, but we've never actually seen a blue apple ourselves. Is it worth your while researching the topic? You probably have more important things to do. Even if I show you a photograph of the blue apples it might have been faked. I could even give you a blue apple to inspect and eat - but I might have used food dyes on a regular green apple.

This question is discussed in David Deutsch's book, The Fabric of Reality. His opinion is that there's not enough time to investigate every claim, and that the rational thing to do is to doubt all new claims, until such time when a group of respected people, more interested in the claim than you, have investigated it, and reached a consensus that it is probably true.
sparks
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
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Re: Ivermectin study questioned

Post by sparks »

"It is not a (horse) wormer,"

I stand corrected on that point. :)