The Covid vaccines really do work

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xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Anaxagoras wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:12 pm
xouper wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:50 pm Here's the longer version: Yes, there are new data that "In many hospitals these days, the majority of covid patients are vaccinated."
Cannot find a single example.
Seems then you have two choices. Stop looking or keep looking.

Took me two minutes to find these two:
  • https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/p ... finds.html
  • https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ ... -1.4670229


In the past, I did not save the links of the others as I found them, since I did not expect there to be a quiz later.

It's up to you. If you are not interested in finding that data, then don't. I'm not going to argue with you about it.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Ballad Health voted for Biden so you know we cannot trust those "statistics," Anax!

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Mockery does not refute the data.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Anaxagoras wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:12 pm Cannot find a single example.
Here's one I hadn't seen before. New Hampshire:

https://www.vaccinewars.com/2021-10-08- ... tions.html
Some 90 employees from the Vermont Health Department (VHD) signed a letter back in late August admitting that the number of new “cases” of the Chinese Virus has been steadily rising among the fully vaccinated.

At that time, nearly half of all new cases were in people who took the full regimen of injections as prescribed by the government and Big Pharma. Since that time, that figure has skyrocketed to more than 76 percent.

Very few unvaccinated people in Vermont are testing “positive” and getting sick, in other words. The vast majority of all new sicknesses and deaths there are occurring in people who . . . [are vaccinated].
I haven't verified that data nor have I verified the veracity of that source. So, skepticism is warranted, obviously, especially since much of that article is editorial (opinion) rather than simply reporting data.

In any case, from what I have been reading, certain other states are reporting that while the current number of vaccinated patients in the hospital with covid is still less than unvaccinated patients, the percentage is showing an alarming increase, approaching one half of patients with covid are already vaccinated. If this trend continues — and maybe it won't — then the number of vaccinated covid patients in those hospitals could soon exceed the unvaccinated, similar to the trends seen in other countries: Israel, Ireland, UK, etc.

New data is still coming in. The situation is still evolving. We shall see. What the data showed six months ago is not necessarily what the data are today or tomorrow. We shall see.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Absence of data merits mockery.

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Except the data is not absent. Some of it has been posted here. Most of it is available on the internet for those who are sincere in looking for it.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

One upset at being mocked would do well to cease behaving the fool.

It is not terribly complicated.

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

If said mockery was legitimate and justifiable, then I might agree. But such mockery is not legitimate nor justifiable.

Furthermore, falsely accusing someone of "behaving the fool" does not help your case. In fact, it undermines your entire point.

I'm sure you already know the Latin name for the fallacy you just committed. Ad Hominem, anyone? It's not terribly complicated.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Apparently it is terribly complicated for some.

Curious.

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

That's an obvious passive/aggressive way of trying to discredit someone, of giving the appearance of discrediting them, but without actually discrediting them. Curious, indeed.

My observations about hospitals are supported by data and continue to stand unrefuted. All the histrionics and attempted mockery doesn't change that fact.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Sort of like a squeeze toy.

Would hurt less if the evidence requested were ever provided.

– J.D.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

It is not as if it is particularly difficult to find evidences:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/ ... pg?_=69823

Oh Noes! The CDC!!!1!!

Granted, it may be hard to find evidences to support a conspiracy theory or other willfully ignorant pet theories.

It is ever a process. . . .

– J.D.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

I mean, look at how hard this is to do:
If you've had COVID-19 before, does your natural immunity work better than a vaccine?
The data is clear: Natural immunity is not better. The COVID-19 vaccines create more effective and longer-lasting immunity than natural immunity from infection.
  • More than a third of COVID-19 infections result in zero protective antibodies
    Natural immunity fades faster than vaccine immunity
    Natural immunity alone is less than half as effective than natural immunity plus vaccination
Nebraska Med
But we cannot trust that, can we? Nebraska voted for Biden!!1!!

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

It depends on which experts you choose to believe. There are data that contradicts the source you cited.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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This is so hard:

https://echo360.org/media/df6327b6-1e39 ... f8e/public

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Not all experts agree with what you cited.

As just one example:
https://covidcalltohumanity.org/2021/07 ... -is-lying/

So again, it depends on which experts you choose to believe.

There is plenty of data out there to support the claim that natural immunity is better than the vaccine. That fact is not refuted by those who disagree or cite other data.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Another example:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... ar-AAMX3sM
Makary said data from Israel revealed that natural immunity appears to be 6.7x more effective than being vaccinated when it comes to fighting off COVID-19.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Did not read any of it, did you?
One thing I'll say for him: he's consistent.

– Adm. Jame T. Kirk
– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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I generally do not trust politifact, given their leftist bias, but even they say natural immunity is better than the vaccine.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... ar-AAOyq9I
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Doctor X wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:41 am Did not read any of it, did you?
Yes I did.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Maybe get an adult to explain all of those "big words?"

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Another source, using all those "big words":

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-res ... y-covid-19
. . . The research was funded in part by NIH’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and National Cancer Institute (NCI). Results were published on January 6, 2021, in Science.

. . . 95% of the people had at least 3 out of 5 immune-system components that could recognize SARS-CoV-2 up to 8 months after infection.
Last edited by xouper on Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Will even provide a sippy cup.

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

:roll:

Mockery does not refute the sources I cited, that also happen to contradict the sources you cited.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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And a nappy change.

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Another source, using "big words":

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbr ... y-n2595054
A recently released study — pending peer review — from researchers in Israel found that individuals who developed natural immunity after contracting the Wuhan coronavirus are better protected against the Delta variant than those who only have immunity induced by the Pfizer mRNA vaccine.

The findings reported in this massive study directly contradict findings from the CDC released earlier in August and used to urge those who already had COVID to get vaccinated.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

I have sufficiently demonstrated that my observation about natural immunity is indeed supported by data.

You may not agree with that data, but you cannot legitimately deny that there is credible data to support my observation.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Just cannot handle actual evidence.

– J.D.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

xouper wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:37 pm Took me two minutes to find these two:
  • https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/p ... finds.html
  • https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ ... -1.4670229
OK thanks. So there are examples, but these are just raw numbers, not per capita numbers or age-adjusted numbers as I explained earlier.

So, from your first link about Israel:
Of 514 patients in Israel hospitalized with COVID-19 as of Aug. 15, 59 percent were fully vaccinated, according to an Aug. 16 article from Science that cited national data tracked by Israel's largest health management organization. The figures suggest breakthrough infections may be more common than the term implies, the report suggests.

Most of the vaccinated patients who were hospitalized, about 87 percent, were at least 60 years old.
. . .

The country has one of the world's highest COVID-19 vaccination levels, with about 78 percent of those ages 12 and older fully vaccinated, mostly with the Pfizer vaccine. At the same time, Israel now has one of the highest infection rates in the world, potentially a sign of waning vaccine immunity as the highly contagious delta variant spreads, Science reports.

In response, Israel began administering booster doses to people ages 60 and older July 30. The country has since expanded booster dose eligibility to Israelis who are at least 50 years old.
So if 59 percent of those in the hospital are fully vaccinated (and 87 percent of those are over 60), but 78% of the population is vaccinated, that would mean that the unvaccinated account for 22% of the population but 41% of those hospitalized. (I assume that kids under 12 account for very few, if any hospitalizations,) It still indicates that the vaccines are providing some protection, if you consider the context.

Unfortunately, the article does not really put the raw numbers in context, such as adjusting for age and per capita. It says that 87 percent of the vaccinated patients are over 60, but doesn't mention anything about the ages of the unvaccinated patients in the hospital.

There is also subsequent data from Israel that those booster shots have made a big difference:

Analysis: With boosters, masks and Green Pass, Israel sees a COVID-19 wave in retreat
Since peaking in early September, daily infections in Israel have fallen more than 80%, with severe cases nearly halved.
. . .

The Israeli Health Ministry on Thursday presented the latest safety and effectiveness data from its booster campaign to a panel of advisers to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration considering authorization of additional booster shots.

The data show that among people over 60 - the first group to receive boosters - infections began declining rapidly about two weeks after third doses were administered, while still climbing among other age groups.
. . .

Two months into the Delta wave, vaccinated people over the age of 60 made up more than half of severe COVID-19 cases. The majority were over 70 with health conditions that put them at higher risk.

Since administration of boosters, mostly unvaccinated, often younger, people are bearing the brunt of serious illness. They make up about 75% of hospitalized patients in severe condition, while those vaccinated with two or three shots account for a quarter of such cases.

A third dose has so far been effective in curbing severe breakthrough cases among vaccinated people age 40 and up, according to the health ministry.
So that was a snapshot in time, but since that time, with booster shots, daily infections are declining again, and the unvaccinated again make up the majority of those in the hospital, about 75%.

From the second link, again, it doesn't say anything about per capita numbers or age-controlled numbers. Nothing at all about the ages of people hospitalized.
At the end of August, 54 per cent of Covid-19 patients – or 168 patients – were fully vaccinated. Some 44 per cent were not fully vaccinated, and in 2 per cent of cases, the vaccination status was unknown.
However it does say the following:
About 90 per cent of the adult population has received a full course of vaccination, either two doses or one. People are considered fully vaccinated one week after their second dose of Pfizer vaccine, or two weeks after receiving any of the other three authorised vaccines.
So if 90 percent of the adult population has been fully vaccinated, but fully vaccinated people only account for 54% of those in the hospital, again that means that on a per capita basis, the risk is higher for the unvaccinated.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Anaxagoras wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:13 am. . . from your first link about Israel:
He did not read discussion of the problems with that study.

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Anaxagoras wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:13 am So if 90 percent of the adult population has been fully vaccinated, but fully vaccinated people only account for 54% of those in the hospital, again that means that on a per capita basis, the risk is higher for the unvaccinated.
You are now addressing a claim I did not make.

I see what you are saying, and I do not dispute your math, but that does not refute my original observation.

What you seem to be saying is that it is more complicated than the simple observation I made and that there is another way to spin the numbers.

Perhaps so. :dunno:
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Imagine if he had read the discussion provided of the problems with a study before posting it?

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Doctor X wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:57 am Did I miss the cogent and evidence-based argument against vaccination?
It should be abundantly clear now that you did indeed "miss" such an argument. My original intent was to help you find it.

You may not agree with that argument, but you cannot now legitimately deny that the argument exists.

In any case, I was merely citing what certain experts were saying. If you disagree with their argument, then that is between you and those experts and has nothing to do with me.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Doctor X wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:35 am Imagine if he had read the discussion provided of the problems with a study before posting it?

– J.D.
imagine if you had read where that study confirms my original claim despite those "problems".

54% is still more than 46%, no matter how you want to spin it.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

xouper wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:10 pm
Anaxagoras wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:12 pm Cannot find a single example.
Here's one I hadn't seen before. New Hampshire:

https://www.vaccinewars.com/2021-10-08- ... tions.html

I haven't verified that data nor have I verified the veracity of that source. So, skepticism is warranted, obviously, especially since much of that article is editorial (opinion) rather than simply reporting data.
This site, honestly, should make your skeptical alarm bells ring. It's called "Vaccine Wars". That's your first clue. Look at some of the words they use in that article:
Reports indicate that a heavy spike like this has not been seen since the peak of the plandemic last winter
Anyone using the word "plandemic" is a loony tunes conspiracy theorist. I could go on, but I really do not think I need to go further on this particular "source". I would take anything they say with more than a grain of salt and look for corroboration from more reliable sources.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Hotarubi »

Doctor X wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:35 am Imagine if he had read the discussion provided of the problems with a study before posting it?

– J.D.
True skeptics do not need evidences or research.

They are bright.

And go on cruises.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Anaxagoras wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:48 am
xouper wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:10 pm
Anaxagoras wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:12 pm Cannot find a single example.
Here's one I hadn't seen before. New Hampshire:

https://www.vaccinewars.com/2021-10-08- ... tions.html

I haven't verified that data nor have I verified the veracity of that source. So, skepticism is warranted, obviously, especially since much of that article is editorial (opinion) rather than simply reporting data.
This site, honestly, should make your skeptical alarm bells ring. It's called "Vaccine Wars". That's your first clue. Look at some of the words they use in that article:
Reports indicate that a heavy spike like this has not been seen since the peak of the plandemic last winter
Anyone using the word "plandemic" is a loony tunes conspiracy theorist. I could go on, but I really do not think I need to go further on this particular "source". I would take anything they say with more than a grain of salt and look for corroboration from more reliable sources.
I agree with your analysis on credibility. The word "plandemic" is indeed a serious red flag. I missed that. I did at least acknowledge that skepticism is warranted with this source.

That does not automatically mean the data is wrong, but it does mean we should not take their word for it. Are there corroborating sources that are sufficiently reliable? It's your choice whether to go look for that.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

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Hotarubi wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:06 amTrue skeptics do not need evidences or research.

They are bright.

And go on cruises.
And cite conspiracy pages!

– J.D.
xouper
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by xouper »

Sarcasm does not contribute anything useful to the conversation.
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

It is almost as if someone should have actually read the posted evidence from non-conspiracy theory websites with agenda.

Might ruin someone's agenda, though.

– J.D.