The Covid vaccines really do work

We are the Borg.
Anaxagoras
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

Would you be skeptical if I told you that there was a vaccine available from the very beginning of the pandemic that offered significant protection against COVID-19, that a single dose of this vaccine costs less than a bottle of soda pop, and that the vaccine also protects against many other infectious diseases including upper respiratory tract infections, leprosy, malaria, viral, and bacterial infections?

Of course you would be skeptical, and rightly so. But could it be true? It sounds a little too good to be true.

https://www.cell.com/cell-reports-medic ... 0271-3.pdf
INTRODUCTION
The BCG vaccine is a >100-year old vaccine originally developed for tuberculosis protection. It is heralded as the safest vaccine ever developed, with 3-4 billion people already vaccinated and an annual 120 million newborns vaccinated 1. It is highly affordable at about 10-75 cents/dose. Over the last 17 years, randomized clinical trials and epidemiology studies have shown that the BCG vaccine protects humans from a multitude of infections, including upper respiratory tract infections, leprosy, malaria, viral, and bacterial infections 2-16. The first indication of the broad infectious disease protective abilities of this vaccine came 100 years ago when Albert Calmette, the vaccine’s co-inventor, noted a four-fold decline in child mortality (unrelated to tuberculosis) in vaccinated children, presumably from broad infectious disease protection 17. These protective effects appear also when adolescents are re-vaccinated with BCG after the typical newborn dose 10. The BCG vaccine may also protect humans from immune diseases such as type 1 diabetes and multiple sclerosis 18-21. The mechanisms behind these wide-ranging benefits are a topic of active scientific discovery.
Anyway, this trial had 155 subjects and it found a 92% efficacy against COVID-19 for the BCG vaccine vs. placebo.

:notsure:

By the way, there's a map (see Figure 2) that shows which countries currently give the BCG vaccine and which countries do not:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062527/

It seems to be given in most of the world, but not in the US, Canada, most Western European Countries or in the antipodes. Is there any apparent correlation between countries that give this vaccine and those that don't? Hard to say. For example, there's Brazil, and Peru, which give the vaccine but also had a lot of Covid deaths. Some Eastern European countries that give it had very high rates of mortality. Also, just looking for correlations with this map is not scientifically rigorous, of course.

On the other hand, this vaccine is given to babies and adolescents, not old people who were most susceptible. So it could be that we don't see an effect mostly because old people haven't had it recently.

And of course, someone should probably take a hard look at this paper to make sure that it is legit.
Limitations of the Study
The most important limitation of our trial is that off-target effects take time to systemically manifest, but, once they do appear, they may offer broad-based infectious disease protection over the long-term. BCG does not work as fast as the antigen-specific COVID-19 vaccines and also likely requires multiple treatments over time to be effective, at least in BCG- naïve adults. Antigen-specific vaccines generally take weeks to show an effect although protection is limited by a specific strain and then downstream by short durability. In the case of the BCG vaccine, the off-target platform protection from infections has a slower onset (months to years) but offers perhaps life-long durability. The other off-target effects of BCG are in its reset of autoimmune diseases, benefits that take 2 years to show an effect 18-21. Nonetheless, the benefits may last for decades thereafter as well, at least 8 years in randomized clinical trials. Many of the epidemiologic studies show off-target protection after neonatal or adult vaccination, including one study showing >60 years of protection from a neonatal BCG vaccine 19,59. This “long immunity,” is both long to start and perhaps long-lasting.
So take it all with a grain of salt, but it seems like an interesting possibility.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Oh, you laughed at ivermectin but you want us to all get consumption?

– J.D.
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

A study population of 155 does not inspire confidence, with or without intervals.
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

“I’m vaccinated and double boosted and I only got Covid three times. Just think how much worse it would’ve been if I hadn’t been vaccinated. “
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

Wait until it cross-breeds with monkeypox. 🐒
sparks
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by sparks »

That is exactly what killed Ed's crawdads11!
robinson2
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson2 »

robinson,

You use subtle sarcasm, and that almost never works online. Even heavy handed obvious sarcasm doesn't work online.
Ben Trovado
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Ben Trovado »

What about litotes?
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

I use them all the time, but the 3rd definition type
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Now back to science.

I mean

SCIENCE!
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

Got my covalent Moderna booster and a flu shot.

Vaccinator: "Would you like one in each arm or both in one arm?"

Me: "Both in the left, thanks." I roll up my left sleeve.

Vaccinator: "That's your left arm."

Me: "Yes. Did I say right?"

Vaccinator: "Yes."

Me: "Both in the left, thanks."

I do not identify as "bi".
Anaxagoras
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

Remember when I posted about the BCG vaccine?

Well, now there's another study:

Efficacy of Bacillus Calmette-Guérin (BCG) Vaccination in Reducing the Incidence and Severity of COVID-19 in High-Risk Population (BRIC): a Phase III, Multi-centre, Quadruple-Blind Randomised Control Trial

I've heard of double-blinding, but not quadruple blinding before.

Anyway, what did they find?
Methods: In this multi-centre quadruple-blind, parallel assignment randomised control trial, 495 high-risk group adults (aged 18-60 years) were randomised into BCG and placebo arms and followed up for 9 months from the date of vaccination. The primary outcome was the difference in the incidence of COVID-19 infection at the end of 9 months. Secondary outcomes included the difference in the incidence of severe COVID-19 infections, hospitalisation rates, intensive care unit stay, oxygen requirement and mortality at the end of 9 months. The primary analysis was done on an intention-to-treat basis, while safety analysis was done per protocol.

Results: There was no significant difference in the incidence rates of cartridge-based nucleic acid amplification test (CB-NAAT) positive COVID-19 infection [odds ratio (OR) 1.08, 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.54-2.14] in the two groups, but the BCG arm showed a statistically significant decrease in clinically diagnosed (symptomatic) probable COVID-19 infections (OR 0.38, 95% CI 0.20-0.72). Compared with the BCG arm, significantly more patients developed severe COVID-19 pneumonia (CB-NAAT positive) and required hospitalisation and oxygen in the placebo arm (six versus none; p = 0.03). One patient belonging to the placebo arm required intensive care unit (ICU) stay and died. BCG had a protective efficacy of 62% (95% CI 28-80%) for likely symptomatic COVID-19 infection.

Conclusions: BCG is protective in reducing the incidence of acute respiratory illness (probable symptomatic COVID-19 infection) and severity of the disease, including hospitalisation, in patients belonging to the high-risk group of COVID-19 infection, and the antibody response persists for quite a long time. A multi-centre study with a larger sample size will help to confirm the findings in this study.
So it doesn't reduce the likelihood of a positive PCR test, but it does significantly reduce the likelihood that severe disease will result.

Again, this is a vaccine that costs less than a dollar.
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.ade1051
COVID-19 vaccination and menstruation
COVID-19 vaccination causes small changes to menstruation that quickly resolve
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

SEEEEEeEEEEE?!!1!!!!

And I got the So-Called Flu "Vaccine" directly from Strokin' Joe and . . . I FELT FLU-LIKE SYMPTOMS NEARLY TWO DAYS LATER!!!!1!!!!!

They were mild.







Lasted about twelve hours.







EXPLAIN THAT!

– J.D.
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm715152e2.htm
Summary
What is already known about this topic?


Immunity from monovalent COVID-19 mRNA vaccination wanes over time. A bivalent COVID-19 mRNA booster dose is recommended for all eligible persons; however, little is known about its effectiveness against COVID-19 hospitalization.

What is added by this report?

Among immunocompetent adults aged ≥65 years hospitalized in the multistate IVY Network, a bivalent booster dose provided 73% additional protection against COVID-19 hospitalization compared with past monovalent mRNA vaccination only.

What are the implications for public health practice?

To maximize protection against severe COVID-19 this winter season, all eligible persons, especially adults aged ≥65 years, should receive a bivalent booster dose and consider additional prevention strategies, including masking in indoor public spaces.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Since masking indoors is not an actual preventative strategy, I will deem it the fatuous "we have no idea what the data actually says" crap we have become use to.

I like how it tries to extend "≥65 years" to mean "all eligible persons." Who are "ineligible," incidentally, since mandates were not lifted on those with legitimate contraindications?

As ever, the CDC shoots itself in the dick yet again and provides fodder for the more complete anti-vaccination conspiracy theorists.

– J.D.
Anaxagoras
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

Doctor X wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:05 pm Since masking indoors is not an actual preventative strategy,
May I ask what the basis for this claim is? I have seen contrary information.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014564118

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abg6296

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7106e1.htm
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

First is a review article making sweeping generalizations. It actually cites Pseudomonas, a bacteria.

The title of the second betrays its problem, and just the Abstract:
Cheng et al. convincingly show that most people live in conditions in which the airborne virus load is low. The probability of infection changes nonlinearly with the amount of respiratory matter to which a person is exposed. If most people in the wider community wear even simple surgical masks, then the probability of an encounter with a virus particle is even further limited. In indoor settings, it is impossible to avoid breathing in air that someone else has exhaled, and in hospital situations where the virus concentration is the highest, even the best-performing masks used without other protective gear such as hazmat suits will not provide adequate protection.
Finally, the last, as much as I detest hasty generalizations and Well Poisoning . . . the CDC . . . which preached no masks . . . and cruises are completely safe! And pack the actually vulnerable together!

These:
Consistent use of a face mask or respirator in indoor public settings was associated with lower odds of a positive SARS-CoV-2 test result (adjusted odds ratio = 0.44). Use of respirators with higher. . .
are not "face masks."

– J.D.
Anaxagoras
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

OK, but I'm just trying to understand. Are you making a distinction between "respirators" and "face masks"? Which might not be obvious to a layperson. Are the former effective and what exactly qualifies?

When you say "The title of the second betrays its problem", this is the title: "Face masks effectively limit the probability of SARS-CoV-2 transmission"
What problem does that indicate? That they are less than 100% effective? Because that isn't my position.

Is there any scientific literature that shows conclusively that masks or respirators are wholly ineffective or at least not effective enough to be worthwhile?
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Anaxagoras wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:33 am OK, but I'm just trying to understand. Are you making a distinction between "respirators" and "face masks"? Which might not be obvious to a layperson. Are the former effective and what exactly qualifies?
Face masks, the type we use, do not stop a virus. Too porous. As one of the articles admits, use in a confined space does nothing. "Respirators" imply a more contained situation that could prevent passage. The problem is not only do not most people not have them, they do not wear them and frequently change them properly.
When you say "The title of the second betrays its problem", this is the title: "Face masks effectively limit the probability of SARS-CoV-2 transmission"
"limit the probability"

The fuck is a "limit" and the fuck is a "probability." No, no, you have to lower the probability, and the probability has to be clinically significant. If the incidence is minuscule, and the nostrum cuts it in half, the incidence is still minuscule and vice a versa.

Is there any scientific literature that shows conclusively that masks or respirators are wholly ineffective or at least not effective enough to be worthwhile?
That is a whole sort of different questions. You are asking if small stones and sawed-off shotguns are "wholly ineffective" in home defense. Most people have small stones. The efficacy of the sawed-off[Stop that!] of the "respirators" needs to also be defined as to what, exactly, one is dealing with.

– J.D.
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/cov ... ock-awaits
The U.S. government has so far purchased 20 million courses of Paxlovid, priced at about $530 each, a discount for buying in bulk that Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla called “really very attractive” to the federal government in a July earnings call. The drug will cost far more on the private market, although in a statement to KHN, Pfizer declined to share the planned price. The government will also stop paying for the company’s COVID vaccine next year — those shots will quadruple in price, from the discount rate the government pays of $30 to about $120.

Bourla told investors in November that he expects the move will make Paxlovid and its COVID vaccine “a multibillion-dollars franchise.”

Nearly 9 in 10 people dying from the virus now are 65 or older. Yet federal law restricts Medicare Part D — the prescription drug program that covers nearly 50 million seniors — from covering the COVID treatment pills. The medications are meant for those most at risk of serious illness, including seniors.
:oldman:
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Nearly 9 in 10 people dying from the virus now are 65 or older. Yet federal law restricts Medicare Part D — the prescription drug program that covers nearly 50 million seniors — from covering the COVID treatment pills. The medications are meant for those most at risk of serious illness, including seniors.
But mask up infants.

Because Science!

– J.D.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Anax, do not take my "slightly on the harsh side of strict" tone personal. There is a lot of crap being spewed about for, frankly, political and religious reasons.

That paper gives good evidences – thanks – for the vaccines for the at-risk population. So I throw that back at all of the "NOT REAZ:L VACSINES BIDEN WANT CONTROL PEOPLE THROU TIKTOK!"

In the rain.

– J.D.
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

Re: masks...at the doctor's office, even if we entered wearing a cloth mask, they used to give us what they called an "isolation mask" which is one of these:

https://i.imgur.com/e0rM0ie.jpg

They have stopped handing those out.

At the hospital, they still give out an isolation mask.

At work, they provide cloth masks which are basically thin diapers, with no pouch to insert a filter and no "nose clip", so all those do is reroute the airflow through the open gaps.

https://i.imgur.com/RN1hc7S.jpg

I would have to buy N95 or better masks that fit to the face to get any sort of usefulness, I guess.

Mostly though, I avoid people as much as possible.
Ben Trovado
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Ben Trovado »

Pyrrho wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:52 pm
Mostly though, I avoid people as much as possible.
I did that *before* covid.
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

I welcome contact with people, I get "vaccinated" every single day, by exposure to small amounts of disease causing pathogens, including each new strain of Covid, the Flue, colds, pneumonia, you name it, if it is transmitted by the air from the lungs, or the gas from your ass, I am breathing it in baby.

Unless you are going to be a hermit and avoid all contact for the rest of your life with other people, it's the sure way to be immune to everything.

Of course this comes with the personal responsibility to eat healthy, sleep, exercise, avoid stress, avoid toxic and radioactive poisons, (pesticides, radon, actual shit you can't become immune to), get sunshine, drink pure water, all that sort of crap. It's effort, but it beats getting sick and maybe being dead from some goddamn Chinese engineered bat virus.
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Now I you are not well, have no immune system that is a beast, from constant challenges, if you are already sickly, are overweight or an alcoholic, have diabetes or some other serious fucking health issue, take the fucking vaccines.

You have no chance if you get a big does of a novel virus. The odds are better if you vaccinate.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

Ben Trovado wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:30 pm
Pyrrho wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:52 pm
Mostly though, I avoid people as much as possible.
I did that *before* covid.

Since they were avoiding you. . . .

– J.D.
Ben Trovado
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Ben Trovado »

Doctor X wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 6:59 pm
Ben Trovado wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:30 pm
Pyrrho wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:52 pm
Mostly though, I avoid people as much as possible.
I did that *before* covid.

Since they were avoiding you. . . .

– J.D.
I am very stealthy.



Ask your Mom.
Doctor X
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Doctor X »

She cannot find where she put your dick, no.

– J.D.
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Mon Sep 27, 2021
Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:50 pm Case example: Japan
Indeed. When the thread was started. 17 months of Covid19

Coronavirus Cases:
1,704,083
Deaths:
17,716
https://web.archive.org/web/20211004072 ... try/japan/

15 months after thread was started (vaccines are working!)
Coronavirus Cases:
27,765,782
Deaths:
54,365
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... try/japan/
Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:50 pm The effectiveness of the vaccines was probably oversold by some, who were so eager to promote them that they "got out over their skis". Exaggerating is never a good idea, even if you think it's for a good reason. But at the same time, they really do have a protective effect. It's just not perfect.
Yeah, right. How's that going for Japan?

No vaccine, 17 months of Covid
Deaths:
17,716

Vaccinate everybody!
36,749 additional deaths, in less time

Hmm, wow, such a protective effect
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

I didn't do the case numbers. It's sort of extremely obvious

Israel (another highly vaccinated country)

Same story

3,000 deaths before vaccination

8,000 deaths after vaccination

Really working there boss, really working
Pyrrho
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Pyrrho »

Apparently exercise helps reduce risk of severe outcomes from COVID infection.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness ... mortality/

The published article:

https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S074 ... 8/fulltext
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

Pyrrho wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:29 pm Apparently exercise helps reduce risk of severe outcomes from COVID infection.
Common knowledge for the “conspiracy theorists”, who were all censored during the pandemic
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Ben Trovado »

Doctor X wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:40 am She cannot find where she put your dick, no.

– J.D.
I was just as surprised about hers.
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlKOFnkXgAM ... ame=medium
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

https://newspunch.com/japan-launches-of ... ne-deaths/

Now there is a mechanism to explain why vaccinated people get way more Covid infections

As well as why so many people are dead, for no known reason
robinson
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by robinson »

It seems at least one country is trying to find out what is actually happening

Of course could be all fake news


The number of dead people isn’t as easy to handwave away
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by Anaxagoras »

“Infowars.com reports”
ed
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Re: The Covid vaccines really do work

Post by ed »

robinson wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:11 pm Mon Sep 27, 2021
Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:50 pm Case example: Japan
Indeed. When the thread was started. 17 months of Covid19

Coronavirus Cases:
1,704,083
Deaths:
17,716
https://web.archive.org/web/20211004072 ... try/japan/

15 months after thread was started (vaccines are working!)
Coronavirus Cases:
27,765,782
Deaths:
54,365
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... try/japan/
Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:50 pm The effectiveness of the vaccines was probably oversold by some, who were so eager to promote them that they "got out over their skis". Exaggerating is never a good idea, even if you think it's for a good reason. But at the same time, they really do have a protective effect. It's just not perfect.
Yeah, right. How's that going for Japan?

No vaccine, 17 months of Covid
Deaths:
17,716

Vaccinate everybody!
36,749 additional deaths, in less time

Hmm, wow, such a protective effect
I'm not sure what these data show.
Coronavirus Cases:
1,704,083
Deaths:
17,716
mortality = .01
15 months after thread was started (vaccines are working!)
Coronavirus Cases:
27,765,782
Deaths:
54,365
mortality = .002

If the entire population was inoculated immediately after the 1,704 number was collected and the virus did not mutate and data collection was identical then you could make a statement I think. Absent that information this is grist for the arm waving mill.

Ditto the second set of numbers. And I am not sure that flu deaths are excluded from any of these numbers...

My only point is that the interpretation of data is sorta complicated. I mean, I would have to see a lot more. Age breaks and co-morbidities for example. This is a bit like saying that 100% of the babies born in a given hospital died without qualifying the number with the information that the year was 1852 and old age was a factor.